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sysop · 20.12.2012, 11:08

Some 165 murders a day. That is the horrifying conclusion reached by an historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II. The identity of many of the murderers has long been known, but to this day little has been done to bring them to justice.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-874024.html

KevinBlankinship · 20.12.2012, 13:41

Anyone who was 18 years old in 1945 would be at least 87 years old today. Any war criminals still alive from that era would have been low in rank. Prosecution may nail the occasional camp guard, but the big fish have either already been caught or are now dead.

Germany will probably eventually forget that era, and most Germans today weren't alive then. But the country's culture has much improved since then. As far as modern-day German intransigence on the prosecution of remaining war criminals goes, Germany is what it is.

ilsehoyle · 20.12.2012, 20:47

There is no justice. I would want revenge.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sysop

Some 165 murders a day. That is the horrifying conclusion reached by an historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II. The identity of many of the murderers has long been known, but to this day little has been done to bring them to justice.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-874024.html

pmoseley · 21.12.2012, 03:51

So why has the lack of prosecution of German war criminals been left to the Italians to protest about? Why haven't the German people and politicians been more active over the years in protesting to their own government about prosecuting them? Don't they care anymore about redemption?

Alexandervl · 21.12.2012, 07:46

As far as I remember the 2nd world war ended 67 years ago. How many new wars with million of deads have occured since? What is it the point in digging in this long passed event? Is it seeking for justice? I doubt. Is it seeking for peace and friendship? I doubt. Could it be that more contemporary political and financial reasons stand as motivation behind these old nazi-war-stories?

What does the faith of Erich Priebke tells us of nowadays society, who at the age of 99 1/2 is still being detained in life emprisonment in Rome? Isn't there a humane voice in us that tells us that a man being in his 100st living year should be, no matter what he could have been done in his past, for sure given amnesty? I mean can there be any doubt on this matter in a civilized and humane society? Is ever lasting revenge our guiding principle? Or shouldn't it be, at one point, plain decent forgiveness?

Have a look at the christmas message from Erich Priebke himself. I have no doubt that you will also believe that is finally the time to let free this old man, last prisoner alive of the 2nd world war, at the age of 99 1/2:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RplUVJTM4Uo

Merry Christmas to you and peace and friendship for all mankind.

AvL

stevej8 · 23.12.2012, 13:57

There is no doubt that massacres and war crimes were committed by some German troops in Italy, however this article conveys the impression that this was a practically universal activity of German forces, whereas it was mostly on the part of certain units especially SS, sometimes on their own local initiative (ie without specific direct orders from high up, though Hitler had ordered retaliations against partisan attacks in general - which Allied leaders such as Stalin and Churchill based their strategy on in part) and many German troops carried out no such deeds, as well as that every claim of such actions and numbers of victims is established beyond doubt, without any consideration of factors such as possible (and in some other cases proven) deliberate exaggeration (on occasion) by eg Communist propaganda, or even similar actions if on a smaller scale by partisans who also fought a ruthless war in the East especially. Furthermore Italian forces themselves had conducted ruthless wars in Africa and the Balkans often hitting civilians hard, as to some degree did Italian forces of the 'Salo Republic' at this time, which illustrates the context of the times at issue, and of course German and other 'Axis' nation civilians were also killed in large numbers in the late war years by Allied forces and partisans (eg in Yugoslavia). None of which justifies the targeting of civilians (though the laws of war were not quite so clearly defined then as later), yet the impression should be avoided that only Germans were doing this, and that all Germans were involved, both of which are far from the truth.

stevej8 · 26.12.2012, 13:12

There is no doubt that massacres and war crimes were committed by some German troops in Italy, however this article conveys the impression that this was a practically universal activity of German forces, whereas it was mostly on the part of certain units especially SS, sometimes on their own local initiative (ie without specific direct orders from high up, though Hitler had ordered retaliations against partisan attacks in general - which Allied leaders such as Stalin and Churchill based their strategy on in part - eg 'Set Europe Ablaze') and many German troops carried out no such deeds, as well as that every claim of such actions and numbers of victims is established beyond doubt, without any consideration of factors such as possible (and in some other cases proven) deliberate exaggeration (on occasion) by eg Communist propaganda, or even similar actions if on a smaller scale by partisans who also fought a savage war in the East especially. Furthermore Italian forces themselves had conducted ruthless wars in Africa and the Balkans often hitting civilians hard, as to some degree did Italian forces of the 'Salo Republic' at this time, which illustrates the context of the times at issue, and of course German and other 'Axis' nation civilians were also killed in large numbers in the late war years by Allied forces and partisans (eg in Yugoslavia). None of which justifies the targeting of civilians (though the laws of war were not quite so clearly defined then as later), yet the impression should be avoided that only Germans were doing this, and that all Germans were involved, both of which are far from the truth.

(This is my second attempt to post here, and with other rejected comments in the past it makes me wonder if excessive censorship is being applied here for the purpose of maintaining a false narrative of uniquely evil German Guilt, which many Spiegel et al articles seem redolent with. This comment is both accurate and unexceptionable and can be blocked for no other reason).

20.12.2012, 11:08	#1
sysop Administrator Join Date: 08.03.2005 Posts: 3,157	Nazis in Italy: War Crimes Report Estimates 165 Murders Per Day Some 165 murders a day. That is the horrifying conclusion reached by an historical commission assigned the task of exploring the full extent of Nazi war crimes committed in Italy in World War II. The identity of many of the murderers has long been known, but to this day little has been done to bring them to justice. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-874024.html

20.12.2012, 13:41	#2
KevinBlankinship Join Date: 20.12.2012 Posts: 1	Time to put the past in the past Anyone who was 18 years old in 1945 would be at least 87 years old today. Any war criminals still alive from that era would have been low in rank. Prosecution may nail the occasional camp guard, but the big fish have either already been caught or are now dead. Germany will probably eventually forget that era, and most Germans today weren't alive then. But the country's culture has much improved since then. As far as modern-day German intransigence on the prosecution of remaining war criminals goes, Germany is what it is.

21.12.2012, 03:51	#4
pmoseley Join Date: 18.11.2011 Posts: 47	Why aren't Germans protesting? So why has the lack of prosecution of German war criminals been left to the Italians to protest about? Why haven't the German people and politicians been more active over the years in protesting to their own government about prosecuting them? Don't they care anymore about redemption?

21.12.2012, 07:46	#5
Alexandervl New User Join Date: 21.12.2012 Posts: 1	Priebke Christmas message - Freedom at last As far as I remember the 2nd world war ended 67 years ago. How many new wars with million of deads have occured since? What is it the point in digging in this long passed event? Is it seeking for justice? I doubt. Is it seeking for peace and friendship? I doubt. Could it be that more contemporary political and financial reasons stand as motivation behind these old nazi-war-stories? What does the faith of Erich Priebke tells us of nowadays society, who at the age of 99 1/2 is still being detained in life emprisonment in Rome? Isn't there a humane voice in us that tells us that a man being in his 100st living year should be, no matter what he could have been done in his past, for sure given amnesty? I mean can there be any doubt on this matter in a civilized and humane society? Is ever lasting revenge our guiding principle? Or shouldn't it be, at one point, plain decent forgiveness? Have a look at the christmas message from Erich Priebke himself. I have no doubt that you will also believe that is finally the time to let free this old man, last prisoner alive of the 2nd world war, at the age of 99 1/2: http://youtube.com/watch?v=RplUVJTM4Uo Merry Christmas to you and peace and friendship for all mankind. AvL

23.12.2012, 13:57	#6
stevej8 Join Date: 09.04.2011 Posts: 34	Misleading impressions given by the article There is no doubt that massacres and war crimes were committed by some German troops in Italy, however this article conveys the impression that this was a practically universal activity of German forces, whereas it was mostly on the part of certain units especially SS, sometimes on their own local initiative (ie without specific direct orders from high up, though Hitler had ordered retaliations against partisan attacks in general - which Allied leaders such as Stalin and Churchill based their strategy on in part) and many German troops carried out no such deeds, as well as that every claim of such actions and numbers of victims is established beyond doubt, without any consideration of factors such as possible (and in some other cases proven) deliberate exaggeration (on occasion) by eg Communist propaganda, or even similar actions if on a smaller scale by partisans who also fought a ruthless war in the East especially. Furthermore Italian forces themselves had conducted ruthless wars in Africa and the Balkans often hitting civilians hard, as to some degree did Italian forces of the 'Salo Republic' at this time, which illustrates the context of the times at issue, and of course German and other 'Axis' nation civilians were also killed in large numbers in the late war years by Allied forces and partisans (eg in Yugoslavia). None of which justifies the targeting of civilians (though the laws of war were not quite so clearly defined then as later), yet the impression should be avoided that only Germans were doing this, and that all Germans were involved, both of which are far from the truth.

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26.12.2012, 13:12	#7
stevej8 Join Date: 09.04.2011 Posts: 34	Balance to a possibly misleading picture There is no doubt that massacres and war crimes were committed by some German troops in Italy, however this article conveys the impression that this was a practically universal activity of German forces, whereas it was mostly on the part of certain units especially SS, sometimes on their own local initiative (ie without specific direct orders from high up, though Hitler had ordered retaliations against partisan attacks in general - which Allied leaders such as Stalin and Churchill based their strategy on in part - eg 'Set Europe Ablaze') and many German troops carried out no such deeds, as well as that every claim of such actions and numbers of victims is established beyond doubt, without any consideration of factors such as possible (and in some other cases proven) deliberate exaggeration (on occasion) by eg Communist propaganda, or even similar actions if on a smaller scale by partisans who also fought a savage war in the East especially. Furthermore Italian forces themselves had conducted ruthless wars in Africa and the Balkans often hitting civilians hard, as to some degree did Italian forces of the 'Salo Republic' at this time, which illustrates the context of the times at issue, and of course German and other 'Axis' nation civilians were also killed in large numbers in the late war years by Allied forces and partisans (eg in Yugoslavia). None of which justifies the targeting of civilians (though the laws of war were not quite so clearly defined then as later), yet the impression should be avoided that only Germans were doing this, and that all Germans were involved, both of which are far from the truth. (This is my second attempt to post here, and with other rejected comments in the past it makes me wonder if excessive censorship is being applied here for the purpose of maintaining a false narrative of uniquely evil German Guilt, which many Spiegel et al articles seem redolent with. This comment is both accurate and unexceptionable and can be blocked for no other reason).