MORE FROM SPIEGEL INTERNATIONAL

sysop · 26.11.2012, 12:44

The International Monetary Fund believes that the only way to reduce Greek debt to a sustainable level is by way of a debt haircut involving the country's government creditors. But with an election approaching, Germany has refused to consider the proposal. Reality is on the IMF's side. <i>By SPIEGEL Staff</i>

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-869300.html

powermeerkat · 26.11.2012, 14:42

Hundreds of millions spend by Greece on German weapons with Germany's encouragement and easy credits.

Weapons Greece has never needed.

Please, Der SPIEGEL - explain it away!

powermeerkat · 26.11.2012, 14:51

dSW: "If the Greek government were in fact forgiven a portion of its debt, Germany would have to write off billions in aid loans. It would mark the first time that Greece's crisis actually cost German taxpayers money, a novelty that Merkel and Sch�uble would like to avoid on the eve of an election year."

When I've pointed out that Merkel's CDU/FDP coalition is loosing popularity in former DDR and neo-Nazi NPD is gaining there fast - some took offense.

Just as when I pointed that by reversing herself and ordering a shut-down of all German atomic power plants the former physisist from DDR made Germany even more dependent on KGB. gen. Putin's GAZPROM and even more vulnerable to another Kremlin blackmail.

Again: WHAT WAS INCORRECT IN THAT COMMENT???

ma4cma4c · 26.11.2012, 19:15

The UK will be affected whatever the decision.
I respect Europe�s common culture, but I have never had a strong interest in its inner workings. Some time ago I realised I didn�t understand what the Euro was about. After much effort I still don�t.
Initially there were doubts expressed on many sides about how both strong and weak economies could co-exist with a common currency and no mechanism for dealing with difficulties. I presumed these doubters had overlooked something.
I now think they were, and still are right. I cannot see any of the solutions on the way as being anything more than delaying tactics. Whatever is decided how is Greece (and the others) going to survive permanently in the Eurozone? The only way they could would be by a root and branch change of all their institutions and the mind-set of the populace. This obviously is not going to happen.
The big question is not how to rescue Greece temporarily, but what is going to be the permanent solution? I have not heard Chancellor Angela Merkel, or any other of the European leaders talk on this matter. I don�t know how this translates into German but all I hear from them all is �hot air�.
. "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately."
John McDonald

titus_norberto · 27.11.2012, 04:37

International usury demands a global government this is a fact, Lagarde represents the international government and the EU is just a prototype, an experiment of OFFICIAL global government, which is not doing very well so far�

The current �de facto� world government is the US of course, but the aim of the usury lobby is to establish an official, �decent� government.

The proof that USA is the virtual world ruler is simple; the US dollar is a �de facto� world currency which is FIAT (lat. �let it be done�) currency, meaning that its value is nominated by the government who emits (prints) it, since the US dollar is international currency, the government who emits it is an international government.

Now the official global government orders Germany to cut its Greek debts�

This is a whole new type of experiment all together, we are not utilizing standard post WW II arm twisting tricks such as such as embargoing military ships by Ghana to Argentina�s Fragata Libertad upon request of a vulture fund based in the Cayman Islands partially owned by the wife of Romney and controlled by an entrepreneur called Peter Singer, embassies property and so forth, all supported by USA�s legal courts which were transformed into virtual appeal courts to the Argentinian Supreme Court, in this case.

Now the IMF claims OFFICIAL authority over Germany�s government�, so we have reached a point in which we can say, �hold-on, we did not agree to these nonsense ��, the �experiment� has acquired its own life like Frankenstein, it is like if a lady we do not know requesting help to board a taxi in the rain after we oblige she demands nothing less that MARRIAGE�

The real big issue lurking below the surface is not the EU, it is not finance nor economy nor even Greece�

The real issue is if we are ready for an official GLOBAL GOVERNMENT or not.

Thus, there are two INCOMPATIBLE world orders possible: 1- independent nations; and 2- world government overriding national governments.

International USURY requires a world government, but independent nations do not necessarily require international usury.

There is a word I ceased to hear when I was in primary school (I am currently 56), it suddenly disappeared from the face of earth thanks to the invention of INFLATION, namely "AHORRO" (savings in Spanish).

After painfully buying and sticking stamps on a book for months at the end we found that the whole book could not buy one single NEW stamp...

Big embarrassment for the teacher who sensibly said enough is enough, no more stamps even if the ministry of education demands it !

We are facing the same problem on a global scale and Lagarde represents the Minister of Education...

Now modern economic theories regard saving a "recessive anomaly", usurers like US to be buried in DEBT, which stimulates LENDING, and international lending demands international courts of justice and laws, and courts of justice demand authority, and authority demand GOVERNMENT, thus LAGARDE can come and demand ACTIONS from sovereign governments which if they comply they refute themselves as SOVEREIGN�

If you think about, this is how the Dutch financiers gained control of England, Ireland and Scotland which named for short with an acronym: "UK", as a result the Dutch uncontested invasion of 1688 (EU, USA and USSR are acronyms for the same purpose).

They work as tickers in the stock market...

They (Dutch financiers and partners) built SOHO, the South Sea Company (for trafficking black slaves), the Bank of England and, most importantly, mutated a monarchy (mono as one) into a diarchy (di as two) of two �monarchs� (only in England this can be done, a nation where a lawyer save his client demonstrating that he has three and not two wives, therefore it cannot be bigamy�) Mary and William III so the real power passed to the Prime Minister, later on came the Hanover dynasty which they lived in Germany and they could not even speak English at all�

Boccato di Cardinali...

The same dirty stratagem is employed today to impose Behind the Scenes an OFFICIAL world government without US even NOTICING IT !

Therefore we demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that USURY needs WORLD GOVERNMENT and its corollary is that world government is the government of USURERS.

Norberto

bluesky123 · 27.11.2012, 04:42

I had a meeting in Frankfurt a year ago. I arrived at the main train station and took a taxi. The taxi driver was a friendly Greek fellow. We talked about the Greek crisis. I asked him what is the view of the Greeks as to why this crisis happened. He told me "everybody in Greece knows that nobody in Greece pays tax".

As we drove past the gleaming bank towers in Frankfurt, I wondered "surely these banks could not have been so stupid as to buy Greek bonds knowing that the whole country is not paying tax?" I decided that surely could not be. So the German banks did know that nobody was paying tax in Greece and the German banks bought the Greek bonds anyway, knowing that the German government would bail them out from their grand folly.

He was such a nice taxi driver with his shiny new Mercedes.

rickt · 27.11.2012, 07:10

Who is denying reality, when the truth is, Greece would have been better off leaving the eurozone two years ago so that it could better deal with putting its house in order?

pmoseley · 27.11.2012, 11:34

So here we have it. Herr Schauble commonly criticises the UK for risking its political isolation and membership of the EU because he believes Cameron is in tow to his right-wing back-benchers. And here he is, scurrying to and fro to mistress Merckel, concocting spurious economics to get out of the inevitable rescue of the Euro by delaying what will eventually be needed to get Greece out of its mess. And all for the sake of maintaining his mistress's coalition and success in the upcoming election. How European. How shifty German.

titus_norberto · 29.11.2012, 04:20

It is not correct that none pay taxes in Greece.

Companies do and people buy taxes with a few drops of petrol when they fill the tank of their cars, so then they take revanche by not paying indirect taxes...

In Latin (Southerner) European countries everyone expects the government to fix everything because they always lived under an IMPERIO (Ottoman, Spanish, Roman, Hellenistic)...

It used to work well, if the crop in Italy was bad, the Emperor bought wheat from Egypt or Crimea, if there were underemployment the Emperor organized a new campaign somewhere far away and so forth...

The problem was the invention of "democracy" a Northerner invention created by peers and traders...

In Greece, Italy, Spain the problem is not that people do not pay taxes..., it is the fact that the governments are so sub-standard, corrupt and incompetent that would not survive a week in the North but they flourish in the South...

After all, none used to dismiss an Emperor every month (although in few bad decades happened in Rome and elsewhere)...

In Latin America we reached a compromise between the two, we have incompetent democratic governments (we were part of the Spanish Empire for more than 500 years) but we upgraded the system utilizing the ubiquitous coup d'etat...

We do not kill Presidents as per USA though..

Norberto

Jim Sherman · 01.12.2012, 07:41

It seems that Germany has not yet learned how to lead. A leader is going to need to take certain positions, from time to time, that may not suit a nation's business interests and may cost a country money. The U.S. knows this all too well. Alas, Germany has not yet learned it.

The Greek situation requires a write off of half their debt. There just is no further question of it. When is Germany going to wake up and realize that allowing "bankruptcy" for Greece and taking a write down on the debt owed to German banks is inevitable.

Instead, reckless or at least negligent German political policy has permitted the financial crisis to fester and drag down regional recovery.

It is a shame that Germany is acting as just a country and not a "regional power" that it surely is. It's time for Merkel to be honest with the people and do what she knows must be done.

26.11.2012, 12:44	#1
sysop Administrator Join Date: 08.03.2005 Posts: 3,181	Denying Reality: Germany's Ongoing Refusal to Forgive Greek Debt The International Monetary Fund believes that the only way to reduce Greek debt to a sustainable level is by way of a debt haircut involving the country's government creditors. But with an election approaching, Germany has refused to consider the proposal. Reality is on the IMF's side. <i>By SPIEGEL Staff</i> http://www.spiegel.de/international/...-a-869300.html

26.11.2012, 14:42	#2
powermeerkat Join Date: 06.11.2012 Posts: 83	Oh the web of deceit... Hundreds of millions spend by Greece on German weapons with Germany's encouragement and easy credits. Weapons Greece has never needed. Please, Der SPIEGEL - explain it away!

26.11.2012, 14:51	#3
powermeerkat Join Date: 06.11.2012 Posts: 83	Oh, hipocrisy! dSW: "If the Greek government were in fact forgiven a portion of its debt, Germany would have to write off billions in aid loans. It would mark the first time that Greece's crisis actually cost German taxpayers money, a novelty that Merkel and Sch�uble would like to avoid on the eve of an election year." When I've pointed out that Merkel's CDU/FDP coalition is loosing popularity in former DDR and neo-Nazi NPD is gaining there fast - some took offense. Just as when I pointed that by reversing herself and ordering a shut-down of all German atomic power plants the former physisist from DDR made Germany even more dependent on KGB. gen. Putin's GAZPROM and even more vulnerable to another Kremlin blackmail. Again: WHAT WAS INCORRECT IN THAT COMMENT???

26.11.2012, 19:15	#4
ma4cma4c Join Date: 26.11.2012 Posts: 3	Where next? The UK will be affected whatever the decision. I respect Europe�s common culture, but I have never had a strong interest in its inner workings. Some time ago I realised I didn�t understand what the Euro was about. After much effort I still don�t. Initially there were doubts expressed on many sides about how both strong and weak economies could co-exist with a common currency and no mechanism for dealing with difficulties. I presumed these doubters had overlooked something. I now think they were, and still are right. I cannot see any of the solutions on the way as being anything more than delaying tactics. Whatever is decided how is Greece (and the others) going to survive permanently in the Eurozone? The only way they could would be by a root and branch change of all their institutions and the mind-set of the populace. This obviously is not going to happen. The big question is not how to rescue Greece temporarily, but what is going to be the permanent solution? I have not heard Chancellor Angela Merkel, or any other of the European leaders talk on this matter. I don�t know how this translates into German but all I hear from them all is �hot air�. . "We must, indeed, all hang together, or most assuredly we shall all hang separately." John McDonald

27.11.2012, 04:37	#5
titus_norberto Join Date: 14.08.2012 Posts: 30	International usury demands a global government International usury demands a global government this is a fact, Lagarde represents the international government and the EU is just a prototype, an experiment of OFFICIAL global government, which is not doing very well so far� The current �de facto� world government is the US of course, but the aim of the usury lobby is to establish an official, �decent� government. The proof that USA is the virtual world ruler is simple; the US dollar is a �de facto� world currency which is FIAT (lat. �let it be done�) currency, meaning that its value is nominated by the government who emits (prints) it, since the US dollar is international currency, the government who emits it is an international government. Now the official global government orders Germany to cut its Greek debts� This is a whole new type of experiment all together, we are not utilizing standard post WW II arm twisting tricks such as such as embargoing military ships by Ghana to Argentina�s Fragata Libertad upon request of a vulture fund based in the Cayman Islands partially owned by the wife of Romney and controlled by an entrepreneur called Peter Singer, embassies property and so forth, all supported by USA�s legal courts which were transformed into virtual appeal courts to the Argentinian Supreme Court, in this case. Now the IMF claims OFFICIAL authority over Germany�s government�, so we have reached a point in which we can say, �hold-on, we did not agree to these nonsense ��, the �experiment� has acquired its own life like Frankenstein, it is like if a lady we do not know requesting help to board a taxi in the rain after we oblige she demands nothing less that MARRIAGE� The real big issue lurking below the surface is not the EU, it is not finance nor economy nor even Greece� The real issue is if we are ready for an official GLOBAL GOVERNMENT or not. Thus, there are two INCOMPATIBLE world orders possible: 1- independent nations; and 2- world government overriding national governments. International USURY requires a world government, but independent nations do not necessarily require international usury. There is a word I ceased to hear when I was in primary school (I am currently 56), it suddenly disappeared from the face of earth thanks to the invention of INFLATION, namely "AHORRO" (savings in Spanish). After painfully buying and sticking stamps on a book for months at the end we found that the whole book could not buy one single NEW stamp... Big embarrassment for the teacher who sensibly said enough is enough, no more stamps even if the ministry of education demands it ! We are facing the same problem on a global scale and Lagarde represents the Minister of Education... Now modern economic theories regard saving a "recessive anomaly", usurers like US to be buried in DEBT, which stimulates LENDING, and international lending demands international courts of justice and laws, and courts of justice demand authority, and authority demand GOVERNMENT, thus LAGARDE can come and demand ACTIONS from sovereign governments which if they comply they refute themselves as SOVEREIGN� If you think about, this is how the Dutch financiers gained control of England, Ireland and Scotland which named for short with an acronym: "UK", as a result the Dutch uncontested invasion of 1688 (EU, USA and USSR are acronyms for the same purpose). They work as tickers in the stock market... They (Dutch financiers and partners) built SOHO, the South Sea Company (for trafficking black slaves), the Bank of England and, most importantly, mutated a monarchy (mono as one) into a diarchy (di as two) of two �monarchs� (only in England this can be done, a nation where a lawyer save his client demonstrating that he has three and not two wives, therefore it cannot be bigamy�) Mary and William III so the real power passed to the Prime Minister, later on came the Hanover dynasty which they lived in Germany and they could not even speak English at all� Boccato di Cardinali... The same dirty stratagem is employed today to impose Behind the Scenes an OFFICIAL world government without US even NOTICING IT ! Therefore we demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that USURY needs WORLD GOVERNMENT and its corollary is that world government is the government of USURERS. Norberto

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27.11.2012, 04:42	#6
bluesky123 Join Date: 12.11.2012 Posts: 6	taxi drivers know more than the bankers I had a meeting in Frankfurt a year ago. I arrived at the main train station and took a taxi. The taxi driver was a friendly Greek fellow. We talked about the Greek crisis. I asked him what is the view of the Greeks as to why this crisis happened. He told me "everybody in Greece knows that nobody in Greece pays tax". As we drove past the gleaming bank towers in Frankfurt, I wondered "surely these banks could not have been so stupid as to buy Greek bonds knowing that the whole country is not paying tax?" I decided that surely could not be. So the German banks did know that nobody was paying tax in Greece and the German banks bought the Greek bonds anyway, knowing that the German government would bail them out from their grand folly. He was such a nice taxi driver with his shiny new Mercedes.

27.11.2012, 07:10	#7
rickt Join Date: 27.11.2012 Posts: 1	Denying reality? Who is denying reality, when the truth is, Greece would have been better off leaving the eurozone two years ago so that it could better deal with putting its house in order?

27.11.2012, 11:34	#8
pmoseley Join Date: 18.11.2011 Posts: 48	Shifty Germany So here we have it. Herr Schauble commonly criticises the UK for risking its political isolation and membership of the EU because he believes Cameron is in tow to his right-wing back-benchers. And here he is, scurrying to and fro to mistress Merckel, concocting spurious economics to get out of the inevitable rescue of the Euro by delaying what will eventually be needed to get Greece out of its mess. And all for the sake of maintaining his mistress's coalition and success in the upcoming election. How European. How shifty German.

29.11.2012, 04:20	#9
titus_norberto Join Date: 14.08.2012 Posts: 30	None used to dismiss an Emperor every month... It is not correct that none pay taxes in Greece. Companies do and people buy taxes with a few drops of petrol when they fill the tank of their cars, so then they take revanche by not paying indirect taxes... In Latin (Southerner) European countries everyone expects the government to fix everything because they always lived under an IMPERIO (Ottoman, Spanish, Roman, Hellenistic)... It used to work well, if the crop in Italy was bad, the Emperor bought wheat from Egypt or Crimea, if there were underemployment the Emperor organized a new campaign somewhere far away and so forth... The problem was the invention of "democracy" a Northerner invention created by peers and traders... In Greece, Italy, Spain the problem is not that people do not pay taxes..., it is the fact that the governments are so sub-standard, corrupt and incompetent that would not survive a week in the North but they flourish in the South... After all, none used to dismiss an Emperor every month (although in few bad decades happened in Rome and elsewhere)... In Latin America we reached a compromise between the two, we have incompetent democratic governments (we were part of the Spanish Empire for more than 500 years) but we upgraded the system utilizing the ubiquitous coup d'etat... We do not kill Presidents as per USA though.. Norberto

01.12.2012, 07:41	#10
Jim Sherman New User Join Date: 06.11.2012 Posts: 7	Learn how to Lead It seems that Germany has not yet learned how to lead. A leader is going to need to take certain positions, from time to time, that may not suit a nation's business interests and may cost a country money. The U.S. knows this all too well. Alas, Germany has not yet learned it. The Greek situation requires a write off of half their debt. There just is no further question of it. When is Germany going to wake up and realize that allowing "bankruptcy" for Greece and taking a write down on the debt owed to German banks is inevitable. Instead, reckless or at least negligent German political policy has permitted the financial crisis to fester and drag down regional recovery. It is a shame that Germany is acting as just a country and not a "regional power" that it surely is. It's time for Merkel to be honest with the people and do what she knows must be done.