Europe's Next Crisis: Britain Losing Allegiance to the EU

[Willy Waucht]

Quote Overall, assuming there were a referendum, it's likely the opinions of the British public wouldn't differ much from those of Germany. Unquote

This is precisely the problem. If there were to be a EU wide referendum tomorrow how many of the EU paymaster countries would vote to stay on this slightly dented project? I think national politicians would struggle to convince the voters from Germany, France and the UK that they are on the right path. It is more likely to be enough is enough. We are of course discussing the word never to be mentioned in Brussels, Referendum.

In the last UK election the Conservative party polled 36% and they avoided talking about Europe at all. Fast forward two years and polls suggest nearly 50% of the electorate would vote against membership of the EU in a referendum. I leave you to translate how the labour party would adjust their often fluid politics to cover that position.

Do bare in mind that the UK polls are based on the British electorates view on the current position. Would anyone like to forecast their views and attitude to a future EU as forecast in the Spiegel article? Answers on a postcard to 10 Downing Street. London SW1.

Willy Waucht

As an American, I welcome the end of the EU. It was a despicable copy of the USA, and from my experience, these sort of big-unions go against normal people, as if to say "Lets combine into something big that rolls over little people." International union is idealistic. The USA would be better if it broke up as well.

[nevermind]

Originally Posted by retarded-freak

As an American, I welcome the end of the EU. It was a despicable copy of the USA, and from my experience, these sort of big-unions go against normal people, as if to say "Lets combine into something big that rolls over little people." International union is idealistic. The USA would be better if it broke up as well.

What is far more likely, apart from the personal ire between a French socialist and a German Christian democrat, is that Britain's tough talk of opting out, whilst still taking the shekel and ensuring one's agricultural subsidies come to blighty before the old EU sinks, is just that, tough talk. Britain has realised that its own recovery is determined by Europe's markets recovering, at least here in the east where I'm living, trade with Europe is on the up.

What Britain is failing to do is to look ahead at what kind of future union might emerge, still operating a border less trade and common Euro, but only to members and those signed up.

Britain could potentially wave good bye to half its foreign trade by not sitting at the table and talking turkey.
Europe has failed due to its unelected Commissioners, uncontrolled lobbying, no mechanism of audited control over the agricultural budgets, unable to respond to the machinations of the US which has always used its aircraft-carrier Britain to enter the EU with division in mind.

Europe should have waved good bye to NATO in 1989 and formed its own peace and defense forces, it should have looked to a common fiscal system, looked at the elimination of tax havens far sooner, but we have trusted party politicians with this work, many of them showing psychopathic tendencies in their acts and manners, prone to go off the rails and please the arms dealers of this world, again.

Germany's retarded attitude to forced child labour in Uzbekistan, for reasons of keeping the worst dictator in power, a murderous man who boils his people alive to torture them, with a pathological hatred for Muslims, and with an equally de generated daughter, Germany is keeping this man sweet for access to Afghanistan and for cotton,
so we have entered a new era and people will make their views known about it.

Whatever happens in Europe of the world. Britain does not know how much they need Europe, markets don't have to be open.
http://www.laborrights.org/stop-chil...ign/uzbekistan

PS Hot tip: the third best political blog, www.craigmurray.co.uk talks about issues as such. Btw. has anybody seen Adam Werritty?...;)

[Dunedainranger]

Yes, a weakening of our commitment to the EU is a natural consequence of the necessity for the UK to look inwards while it re-engineers its own identity. This introspection is an unavoidable result of the Scottish referendum on independence. Normal, and hopefully better service will be resumed after 2014. In the meantime your patience is appreciated. As a good friend I would hope Germany would keep communication channels open to make sure the UK's current posturing is seen for what it is, the birth pangs of an English parliament and a federal UK along German lines.

Originally Posted by nevermind

What is far more likely, apart from the personal ire between a French socialist and a German Christian democrat, is that Britain's tough talk of opting out, whilst still taking the shekel and ensuring one's agricultural subsidies come to blighty before the old EU sinks, is just that, tough talk. Britain has realised that its own recovery is determined by Europe's markets recovering, at least here in the east where I'm living, trade with Europe is on the up.

What Britain is failing to do is to look ahead at what kind of future union might emerge, still operating a border less trade and common Euro, but only to members and those signed up.

Britain could potentially wave good bye to half its foreign trade by not sitting at the table and talking turkey.
Europe has failed due to its unelected Commissioners, uncontrolled lobbying, no mechanism of audited control over the agricultural budgets, unable to respond to the machinations of the US which has always used its aircraft-carrier Britain to enter the EU with division in mind.

Europe should have waved good bye to NATO in 1989 and formed its own peace and defense forces, it should have looked to a common fiscal system, looked at the elimination of tax havens far sooner, but we have trusted party politicians with this work, many of them showing psychopathic tendencies in their acts and manners, prone to go off the rails and please the arms dealers of this world, again.

Germany's retarded attitude to forced child labour in Uzbekistan, for reasons of keeping the worst dictator in power, a murderous man who boils his people alive to torture them, with a pathological hatred for Muslims, and with an equally de generated daughter, Germany is keeping this man sweet for access to Afghanistan and for cotton,
so we have entered a new era and people will make their views known about it.

Whatever happens in Europe of the world. Britain does not know how much they need Europe, markets don't have to be open.
http://www.laborrights.org/stop-chil...ign/uzbekistan

PS Hot tip: the third best political blog, www.craigmurray.co.uk talks about issues as such. Btw. has anybody seen Adam Werritty?...;)

What might you be importing that is so vital from the rest of Europe? Recession doesn't bother me. I see it as strengthening, just like when people are evicted from their homes. They no longer need the banks. It's proof that society is run by greed, and real people are empowered by loss of that which the criminal governments were using to control them -- mortgages, cars, imports, etc...

You can grow pears, apples, and all kinds of stuff in the UK, but for many years, you imported all your pears from France! A completely pointless import. It's like importing corn from Mexico or the reverse. It has no meaning.

[jas88]

Originally Posted by nevermind

Britain could potentially wave good bye to half its foreign trade by not sitting at the table and talking turkey.

Ignoring for the moment WTO rules, you really think the EU would try to eliminate the UK's trade deficit with Europe? Were you not aware that trade was skewed in Europe's favour, to the detriment of the UK?

For the EU to "threaten" to shut off a flow of trade unbalanced in their own favour is as stupid as a rude waiter announcing, at the end of a meal, that he will refuse to allow me to pay the bill!

The UK voted, decades ago, to join a free trade area; anything more is an undemocratic and unacceptable 'bait and switch'. Germany needs to take on board that this is why it is so objectionable to have people like Ashton purporting to speak for a common foreign policy the EU has no business operating. The electorate is divided whether or not to remain in the EU as it is now, but it is virtually unanimous in rejecting the "ever closer union" others seem to take for granted.

Would other EU countries really be stupid enough to shut off international trade out of spite if and when the UK rejects further assimilation? I very much doubt it; an amicable relationship would be in everyone's interests.

[nevermind]

Originally Posted by jas88

Ignoring for the moment WTO rules, you really think the EU would try to eliminate the UK's trade deficit with Europe? Were you not aware that trade was skewed in Europe's favour, to the detriment of the UK?

For the EU to "threaten" to shut off a flow of trade unbalanced in their own favour is as stupid as a rude waiter announcing, at the end of a meal, that he will refuse to allow me to pay the bill!

The UK voted, decades ago, to join a free trade area; anything more is an undemocratic and unacceptable 'bait and switch'. Germany needs to take on board that this is why it is so objectionable to have people like Ashton purporting to speak for a common foreign policy the EU has no business operating. The electorate is divided whether or not to remain in the EU as it is now, but it is virtually unanimous in rejecting the "ever closer union" others seem to take for granted.

Would other EU countries really be stupid enough to shut off international trade out of spite if and when the UK rejects further assimilation? I very much doubt it; an amicable relationship would be in everyone's interests.

As if the UK ever gave its people the opportunity for a fair vote. Not before 1994 did Britain allow a proportional election system, its democratic record is in the cellar, with elections for PCC predicted to rouse less than 20%, a sytem ruled by a chancellor who likes to print money and give it to bankers for their liquidity.

Gideon Osborne, btw. they found traces of cocaine on floor 3's toilet seat, has enabled multinationals such a Barclay, vodafone and Starbucks,etc. to get away with paying no taxes, socially irresponsible looters who operate tax haven regimes as normal, for whom paying tax is a dirty word.

Cameron is cutting Britain's interests off, if he has no social responsibilities with regards to Europe's citizens, regarding this all as building blocks he can just kick over, one excessive demand after the other, whilst some are trying hard to sort the mess out, then he is just sabotaging, being non-constructive and as febrile as his Ascendancy chancellor.

British farmers are wholly uncompetitive in an open world market, without EU subsidies, its own agricultural system is heavily dependent on EU migrant workers, because their own young are idlers, so what are you on about.

where do you live? in a penthouse/flat rented from a colleague...;)

[jas88]

Originally Posted by nevermind

As if the UK ever gave its people the opportunity for a fair vote. Not before 1994 did Britain allow a proportional election system, its democratic record is in the cellar, with elections for PCC predicted to rouse less than 20%, a sytem ruled by a chancellor who likes to print money and give it to bankers for their liquidity.

We held a vote just last year on whether to introduce proportional representation (AV) - and rejected it, democratically. The new police roles are pretty obscure, with few people caring about it enough to vote - nothing undemocratic about that - and the Chancellor here does not "rule" very much, nor indeed is he the one who decided to print money, that was the Monetary Policy Committee, and it started in 2009 when Mr Osborne was in no position of power at all.

A more proportional system might be nice, but in a proper democracy it would need to get public support first; so far, that hasn't happened. I don't like the money-printing either, but the money printed is being given to the government to spend, not to banks.

... Barclay, vodafone and Starbucks,etc. to get away with paying no taxes, socially irresponsible looters who operate tax haven regimes as normal, for whom paying tax is a dirty word.

Largely considered the EU's fault, while the Vodafone controversy was public ignorance about a dispute involving Germany and Luxembourg - just how much tax do you think the UK government should be levying on companies in those countries?

Cameron is cutting Britain's interests off, if he has no social responsibilities with regards to Europe's citizens, regarding this all as building blocks he can just kick over, one excessive demand after the other, whilst some are trying hard to sort the mess out, then he is just sabotaging, being non-constructive and as febrile as his Ascendancy chancellor.

British farmers are wholly uncompetitive in an open world market, without EU subsidies, its own agricultural system is heavily dependent on EU migrant workers, because their own young are idlers, so what are you on about.

It sounds rather as if you are German? The German attitude to the UK and Cameron was reported here recently, coming as quite a surprise being such a reverse of our own perceptions: here, Cameron is derided for being far too supine to the EU's demands. We want a budget/spending cut, like any sensible person would, but even after this was weakened to just wanting a freeze we got tantrums in return: Merkel threatening not to show up for negotiations at all, some Austrian rather absurdly saying "we can veto too" - which would, of course, result in that budget freeze anyway!

Uncompetitive farmers are certainly a problem the EU has exacerbated with the CAP; reforming that is something we have been requesting for at least a decade, but reform seems to be an alien concept there.

[Inglenda2]

This is nothing new whatsoever! Ever since Winston Churchill suggested to the exiled General de Gaulle, in the 1940s, that after WW2 a new form of co-operation between European states could be formed, the political parties in Britain have done all they can to stop the idea.
This opposition to an objective which, when sensibly organised, can only be of benefit to us all, includes the deliberate disinformation of the British public, about the ideas and future concepts of the EU. The main reason for such resistance is not so much patriotism, as the selfish wish not to lose personal privileges which still exist within Britain’s traditional class system. The thought would appear to be, it is better to be a large fish in a small pond than a small fish in a large sea.
How far such resistance can go, is easily portrayed by examining the democratic rights of Britons who choose to be resident in another European land. An Expat, permanently living in Germany, loses his/her right to vote for the British government. At the same time, as a Briton, he/she has no right to take part in elections for the German government. The result is, that those who wish the most to support a free democratic Europe, are punished for doing so.
Of course the way Europe is currently being run, gives sceptics every chance to pour salt into open wounds. A common currency without a common tax and social system cannot work with any great deal of success. A Briton, who sees how German taxpayers are now expected to work until the age of 67, in order to pay the pensions of Greek pilots, who have retired and receive pensions from the age of 49, is unlikely to be enthusiastic about doing the same. Also, the way in which those who are responsible in Brussels are spending money for countries outside of EU, while at the same time member states are struggling under unpayable debts, is certainly not an encouragement to take part.
Let the EU first set a sound fundament for financial and social co-operation, instead of dancing in the clouds. Then there might be the chance for pro-Europeans in Britain to take over the national Rudder.

[jas88]

Originally Posted by Inglenda2

This is nothing new whatsoever! Ever since Winston Churchill suggested to the exiled General de Gaulle, in the 1940s, that after WW2 a new form of co-operation between European states could be formed, the political parties in Britain have done all they can to stop the idea.

On the contrary, it is the political parties which are most supportive of the EU's goals - far more so than the electorate. Blair even wanted to drag us into the Euro, Cameron wants to keep us in and fights tooth and nail to prevent us getting the option of leaving.

How far such resistance can go, is easily portrayed by examining the democratic rights of Britons who choose to be resident in another European land. An Expat, permanently living in Germany, loses his/her right to vote for the British government.

Yes, if you emigrate you eventually lose the right to participate in UK politics. After living in another country for more than a decade, why would you continue to vote in another country? If and when I emigrate, I'd expect to take the citizenship of that country instead, participating in their politics not the UK's. Surely after 15 years living in Germany, you would be eligible to get German citizenship and vote there instead?

Let the EU first set a sound fundament for financial and social co-operation, instead of dancing in the clouds. Then there might be the chance for pro-Europeans in Britain to take over the national Rudder.

Britain is already ruled by much more pro-EU people than the general public! We are quite baffled by this perception across the Channel that our politicians are not already far out of touch with the electorate in that direction.