MORE FROM SPIEGEL INTERNATIONAL

sysop · 21.03.2011, 18:11

The images are repulsive. A group of rogue US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians and then posed with their bodies. On Monday, SPIEGEL published some of the photos -- and the US military responded promptly with an apology. Still, NATO fears that reactions in Afghanistan could be violent.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...752310,00.html

allenels · 21.03.2011, 21:32

I am a US citizen and I have to admit that I know very little about the military. At the very least, I would hope that these identified "rogue army members" would be relieved of duty and returned to the states for military prosecution. These types of individuals should not be tolerated in our military forces, especially seeing that they have such low regard for other human beings. These types of people pose more of a safety risk for Americans world-wide more so than terrorists and terrorism.

heraldmage · 21.03.2011, 22:53

This is what happens when children are subjected to USA military brainwashing. They make moral upstanding youth killers convincing them that the enemy aren't human but animals to be hunted.
It's time we stop destroying the youth of our nations by sending them unnecessarily to war. Military operations in both Afghanistan & Iraq are not to defend our nations, but in response to well planned propaganda campaigns that have taken us down the road of continual fake wars. From the 'Cold War" to the "War on Drugs" to our current "War on Terror" all meant to create a need for huge defense budgets. All to ensure increasing profits for the military-industrial complex as well as other nation building corporations.
When are "we the people" going to say enough! to power. No more senseless wars. Why when the reason for our current wars Iraq & Afghanistan were shown to be false didn't we demand military withdrawal & agree to pay reparation?
Why, because corporate / government propaganda machine convinced us that civil war would break out if we left. The privileged will do anything & say to keep war & reconstruction profits. They don't care about the affects of war on the people. They see things only in terms of $ signs. If we the peoples of the earth don't take money & the privileged out of our government we will be at war forever. Isn't it time we finally ended the feudal system?

Slask · 23.03.2011, 08:41

Taking pictures of your own atrocities is nothing new, they become cherished mementos to be looked at now and then.
Just look at how serial-killers collect pieces of their victims clothing or, in extreme cases bodies, so they can relive the experience.

As to why theses US soldiers were doing this, I think part of the answer can be found by looking 70 years into the past. From the Abstract of the paper "Skull trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance" by Simon Harrison, published in JOURNAL OF THE ROYAL ANTHROPOLOGICAL INSTITUTE, 12

"...focusing on the collection of Japanese skulls as trophies by Allied servicemen in the Second World War ...such human trophy-taking tends to occur in societies, including modern states, in which two conditions hold: the hunting of animals is an important component of male identity; and the human status of enemies is denied."
http://eprints.ulster.ac.uk/1559/

What this picture shows was reasonably common:
http://www.timelifepictures.com/sour...50693116&cdi=0

lol1232 · 23.03.2011, 09:37

Heraldmage don't make excuses for this type of behavior. These are men, not children and discipline is the operative word.

I condemn the poor leadership qualities shown in the officers who were involved in this. I read that it was the "young" enlisted man who told his family of the incident and didn't agree with it [caused him stress].

It is one thing to kill or be killed when engaging in combat but to kill civilians for no cause and display such "pride" like a hunter on safari and taking a picture is unacceptable under any circumstances in the military service.

This type of behavior is of a narcissistic sociopath and it worries me that they will return into society at some point.

Many soldiers have participated in war that didn't stoop to such low ethics, because they took their morals learned early in life with them no matter where they were.

Don't make excuses for them.

BTraven · 23.03.2011, 09:43

Such incidents have always happened in wars, however, with the introduction of mobile phones which had made it much easier to take pictures so the habit of photographing everything and everybody in front of you has been formed it is much more likely that cruelties like the ones committed by American soldiers in Afghanistan will be revealed. I think it would be wrong to say that this generation who fights in wars now is more brutal and inhuman than the soldiers before. In my opinion their misdoings only confirm my assumption that the poorer the people the higher the chances that soldiers who come from countries with an higher living standard will commit crimes against humanity. Some humane seem to develop such a sense of superiority that they think it is quite normal to kill innocent people.

kannafghanistan · 23.03.2011, 17:22

The actions of these soldiers were widely publicized months ago. Courts martial are set to begin shortly to prosecute these offenders, and justice will take its course. Why has Der Spiegel chosen this moment to rekindle the fires of hurt and anger that these actions caused? Is it simply that Der Spiegel only recently acquired these images and couldn't wait to display them? Is it shock value? The U.S. Army did not conceal the fact that these events happened and even announced that the pictures and videos were evidence of the murders and a military crime to possess in their own right. This is not breaking news, but a re-hashing of a story months old... except for the brutal and shocking images. Der Spiegel's release of these images may in fact directly cause further loss of life in an already more than regrettable situation.

What is your purpose, Der Spiegel?

kannafghanistan · 24.03.2011, 02:31

This story broke months ago, when the U.S. Army initially charged the soldiers with the crimes they are now beginning to be tried for. The stories at that time included descriptions of the photos and videos in question, but did not release the photos or videos. Every single one of us could have gone an entire lifetime without seeing those photos and we would not know any less than the initial reports told us.

Der Spiegel notes the concerns that this will cause further violence, born of the same actions. That violence will neither save the victims nor punish the wicked. Why did Der Spiegel choose to publish these photos and boast of possessing more? Why were people subjected to this carnage? Justice is being brought to those soldiers by the same system that has now apologized (again) for their actions. This justice has not been hastened nor begun by Spiegel's reporting. So what was the purpose?

The publication has a good reputation, but it has moderated out a similar comment earlier. Accountability goes more than one direction. I think it fair that Spiegel be asked the question, that others be allowed to see it, and that perhaps a sysop can offer some explanation of what the purpose of this "disclosure" is.

BTraven · 28.03.2011, 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannafghanistan

The actions of these soldiers were widely publicized months ago. Courts martial are set to begin shortly to prosecute these offenders, and justice will take its course. Why has Der Spiegel chosen this moment to rekindle the fires of hurt and anger that these actions caused? Is it simply that Der Spiegel only recently acquired these images and couldn't wait to display them? Is it shock value? The U.S. Army did not conceal the fact that these events happened and even announced that the pictures and videos were evidence of the murders and a military crime to possess in their own right. This is not breaking news, but a re-hashing of a story months old... except for the brutal and shocking images. Der Spiegel's release of these images may in fact directly cause further loss of life in an already more than regrettable situation.

What is your purpose, Der Spiegel?

�NATO, under the leadership of the US Army, has been preparing for possible publication of the photos for close to 100 days.�

Perhaps it would have been better had the US Army published the pictures as well as had apologised for the atrocities. I think it is not enough to warn governments about the images when it is quite sure that a news magazine or a newspaper will publish them. The more offensive the matter is tackled the less damage will it cause.

a.m. ross · 30.03.2011, 04:56

I can answer the previous poster's question: Because U.S. Americans (my fellow countrymen and women) are largely in denial about the corrosive effects of prolonged (and largely unjustified) warfare on the values and psychological welfare of those young men and women thrown into harm's way by politicians/leaders. Without constant reminders (after all we also suffer from short attention spans)we U.S. Americans are prone to view our international conflicts the same way we view sports- a spectacular contest but with a better light show. "Shock & Awe" should naturally lead to "Disgust & Mortify", but it doesn't because....(drum roll please)...we are a warlike nation, and [insert militaristic cliche spoken with a southern accent here]... If every single U.S. American were simply exposed to the truth about the crimes of war we'd be a lot less likely to allow our kids to be sent off to fight in other countries at the behest of the corrupt, bloated and megalomaniacal "leaders" that populate our political institutions...

21.03.2011, 18:11	#1
sysop Administrator Join Date: 08.03.2005 Posts: 3,157	The 'Kill Team' Images: US Army Apologizes for Horrific Photos from Afghanistan The images are repulsive. A group of rogue US Army soldiers in Afghanistan killed innocent civilians and then posed with their bodies. On Monday, SPIEGEL published some of the photos -- and the US military responded promptly with an apology. Still, NATO fears that reactions in Afghanistan could be violent. http://www.spiegel.de/international/...752310,00.html

21.03.2011, 21:32	#2
allenels Join Date: 21.03.2011 Posts: 1	Rogue Army Members I am a US citizen and I have to admit that I know very little about the military. At the very least, I would hope that these identified "rogue army members" would be relieved of duty and returned to the states for military prosecution. These types of individuals should not be tolerated in our military forces, especially seeing that they have such low regard for other human beings. These types of people pose more of a safety risk for Americans world-wide more so than terrorists and terrorism.

21.03.2011, 22:53	#3
heraldmage Join Date: 10.02.2011 Posts: 4	When children are brainwashed This is what happens when children are subjected to USA military brainwashing. They make moral upstanding youth killers convincing them that the enemy aren't human but animals to be hunted. It's time we stop destroying the youth of our nations by sending them unnecessarily to war. Military operations in both Afghanistan & Iraq are not to defend our nations, but in response to well planned propaganda campaigns that have taken us down the road of continual fake wars. From the 'Cold War" to the "War on Drugs" to our current "War on Terror" all meant to create a need for huge defense budgets. All to ensure increasing profits for the military-industrial complex as well as other nation building corporations. When are "we the people" going to say enough! to power. No more senseless wars. Why when the reason for our current wars Iraq & Afghanistan were shown to be false didn't we demand military withdrawal & agree to pay reparation? Why, because corporate / government propaganda machine convinced us that civil war would break out if we left. The privileged will do anything & say to keep war & reconstruction profits. They don't care about the affects of war on the people. They see things only in terms of $ signs. If we the peoples of the earth don't take money & the privileged out of our government we will be at war forever. Isn't it time we finally ended the feudal system?

23.03.2011, 08:41	#4
Slask Join Date: 09.03.2010 Posts: 6	Put the Image in context Taking pictures of your own atrocities is nothing new, they become cherished mementos to be looked at now and then. Just look at how serial-killers collect pieces of their victims clothing or, in extreme cases bodies, so they can relive the experience. As to why theses US soldiers were doing this, I think part of the answer can be found by looking 70 years into the past. From the Abstract of the paper "Skull trophies of the Pacific War: transgressive objects of remembrance" by Simon Harrison, published in JOURNAL OF THE ROYAL ANTHROPOLOGICAL INSTITUTE, 12 "...focusing on the collection of Japanese skulls as trophies by Allied servicemen in the Second World War ...such human trophy-taking tends to occur in societies, including modern states, in which two conditions hold: the hunting of animals is an important component of male identity; and the human status of enemies is denied." http://eprints.ulster.ac.uk/1559/ What this picture shows was reasonably common: http://www.timelifepictures.com/sour...50693116&cdi=0

23.03.2011, 09:37	#5
lol1232 Join Date: 23.03.2011 Posts: 5	No excuses Heraldmage don't make excuses for this type of behavior. These are men, not children and discipline is the operative word. I condemn the poor leadership qualities shown in the officers who were involved in this. I read that it was the "young" enlisted man who told his family of the incident and didn't agree with it [caused him stress]. It is one thing to kill or be killed when engaging in combat but to kill civilians for no cause and display such "pride" like a hunter on safari and taking a picture is unacceptable under any circumstances in the military service. This type of behavior is of a narcissistic sociopath and it worries me that they will return into society at some point. Many soldiers have participated in war that didn't stoop to such low ethics, because they took their morals learned early in life with them no matter where they were. Don't make excuses for them.

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23.03.2011, 09:43	#6
BTraven Benutzer Join Date: 30.05.2006 Posts: 1,524	Such incidents have always happened in wars, however, with the introduction of mobile phones which had made it much easier to take pictures so the habit of photographing everything and everybody in front of you has been formed it is much more likely that cruelties like the ones committed by American soldiers in Afghanistan will be revealed. I think it would be wrong to say that this generation who fights in wars now is more brutal and inhuman than the soldiers before. In my opinion their misdoings only confirm my assumption that the poorer the people the higher the chances that soldiers who come from countries with an higher living standard will commit crimes against humanity. Some humane seem to develop such a sense of superiority that they think it is quite normal to kill innocent people.

23.03.2011, 17:22	#7
kannafghanistan Join Date: 23.03.2011 Posts: 2	A Question For Der Spiegel The actions of these soldiers were widely publicized months ago. Courts martial are set to begin shortly to prosecute these offenders, and justice will take its course. Why has Der Spiegel chosen this moment to rekindle the fires of hurt and anger that these actions caused? Is it simply that Der Spiegel only recently acquired these images and couldn't wait to display them? Is it shock value? The U.S. Army did not conceal the fact that these events happened and even announced that the pictures and videos were evidence of the murders and a military crime to possess in their own right. This is not breaking news, but a re-hashing of a story months old... except for the brutal and shocking images. Der Spiegel's release of these images may in fact directly cause further loss of life in an already more than regrettable situation. What is your purpose, Der Spiegel?

24.03.2011, 02:31	#8
kannafghanistan Join Date: 23.03.2011 Posts: 2	A Question For Der Spiegel This story broke months ago, when the U.S. Army initially charged the soldiers with the crimes they are now beginning to be tried for. The stories at that time included descriptions of the photos and videos in question, but did not release the photos or videos. Every single one of us could have gone an entire lifetime without seeing those photos and we would not know any less than the initial reports told us. Der Spiegel notes the concerns that this will cause further violence, born of the same actions. That violence will neither save the victims nor punish the wicked. Why did Der Spiegel choose to publish these photos and boast of possessing more? Why were people subjected to this carnage? Justice is being brought to those soldiers by the same system that has now apologized (again) for their actions. This justice has not been hastened nor begun by Spiegel's reporting. So what was the purpose? The publication has a good reputation, but it has moderated out a similar comment earlier. Accountability goes more than one direction. I think it fair that Spiegel be asked the question, that others be allowed to see it, and that perhaps a sysop can offer some explanation of what the purpose of this "disclosure" is.

30.03.2011, 04:56	#10
a.m. ross Join Date: 30.03.2011 Posts: 1	Why is this NEWS? I can answer the previous poster's question: Because U.S. Americans (my fellow countrymen and women) are largely in denial about the corrosive effects of prolonged (and largely unjustified) warfare on the values and psychological welfare of those young men and women thrown into harm's way by politicians/leaders. Without constant reminders (after all we also suffer from short attention spans)we U.S. Americans are prone to view our international conflicts the same way we view sports- a spectacular contest but with a better light show. "Shock & Awe" should naturally lead to "Disgust & Mortify", but it doesn't because....(drum roll please)...we are a warlike nation, and [insert militaristic cliche spoken with a southern accent here]... If every single U.S. American were simply exposed to the truth about the crimes of war we'd be a lot less likely to allow our kids to be sent off to fight in other countries at the behest of the corrupt, bloated and megalomaniacal "leaders" that populate our political institutions...