Turkish Immigration to Germany: A History of Self-Deception and Wasted Opportunity

[SPIEGEL_Eric]

Turkish immigrants have been coming to Germany since the 1960s, but for many years Germans assumed the "guest workers" would return home one day. The country's refusal to face up to the reality and the lack of a proper immigration policy led to today's integration problems.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...716067,00.html

[lakechamplainer]

I found this to be a very interesting article. I read it with the viewpoint of an American who had three grandparents "cross the pond", two from Italy and one from Ireland. I also see many of the positive and negative effects of immigration current in the US.

Right now, in the US, in my city (Peabody, MA) there is a continuing flow of Albanians into the area. Some are from Albania, some are from Kosovo, many have lived in Germany - for the most part, they aren't particularly interested in discussing such things, I think because they are completely focused on their lives here. My former next door neighbors came here, both worked very hard, met and got married, have had multiple pizza shops/restaurants, and are raising their three children. Good for them. This is the very best of America - people coming in from the outside, who improve their lives and the lives of those already here.

In the Boston area, there was a huge wave of Irish immigration in the 80s when the economy was good. A lot of people went back, because the economy got better in Ireland, because they were illegal, or to go home to family. The article mentioned that the Turkish immigrants in the 70s stopped going home, which apparently made the problem worse. I know in the 19th and early 20th century there was a lot of back and forth movement, particularly with Germany, which tended to have the most prosperous immigrants going to the US.

My area has also seen Russian and Haitian and Dominican Republic immigration. The Russian immigration is related at least in part to sponsorship of Russian Jewish immigration by Jewish groups in the area. The Russians tend to integrate quite well, although it requires an enormous effort of course. I think as a group this is a very educated group, with many who were professionals in the Soviet Union/Russia.

I think the main thing I take from the article was that the initial immigration was brought about by "labor contracts" between countries. The responsibility for the workers seems to have been essentially farmed out to companies. At least in hindsight this seems like a recipe for failure. It seems like moving out of the Siemens dormitory was a good idea, although I'm sure it took guts and wasn't easy in the short term.

The other main thing I take from the article is that this was pretty much a one-time thing - there were not groups before to take lessons from, and there were not groups coming after to take over "the lowest steps on the ladder".

To me the real problem in the US is that there was a mass of Spanish speaking people, mostly Mexican, who were sought after or at least allowed in by the government and companies to provide cheap labor who had to follow orders, whether in the fields or working as domestics. The population got so large that it is now a very difficult problem to deal with - not because it is a dangerous group, that is not at all what I mean - but the forces that tended to lead to substantial integration after one generation and total integration after two generations has broken down with this group, at least in parts of the country.

[esperonto]

Originally Posted by lakechamplainer

To me the real problem in the US is that there was a mass of Spanish speaking, mostly Mexicans, who were sought after or at least allowed in by the government and companies to provide cheap labor who had to follow orders, whether in the fields or working as domestics. The population got so large that it is now a very difficult problem to deal with - not because it is a dangerous group, that is not at all what I mean - but the forces that tended to lead to substantial integration after one generation and total integration after two generations has broken down with this group, at least in parts of the country.

Turks are all over Europe, not just Germany. They have their Doner Kebap shops as far away as Scotland, but they never make it to the US! I have never seen a kebap store in the United States. The closest I have seen is Greek Gyros. Maybe its evidence of Greek power in the USA that Turks are not here in the same numbers.

As for Mexicans, you can say that they are being imported for cheap labor, but its more than that. The USA has a very corrupt relationship with Mexico as well as Central and South America, including such things as offshore banking, fruit business, corrupt involvement with drug cartels, supporting right wing dictatorships, and generally making life hell in Latin America. The facts show time and again that since we make life unlivable in Latin America, they go north to the states.

For instance the case of Jorge Eliécer Gaitán in Colombia. Here they had a left wing populist president, as popular as Obama. Since he supported some extreme left socialist ideals, the USA assassinated him. Some say it was not the USA, but this is exactly the kind of plot the USA contrives. Nathaniel Weyl tried to say that it was the communists who assassinated Gaitán, but a quick look at his bio shows that he was anti-communist and liable to blame them. As well he worked for the Federal Reserve Board! Therefore you can assume he is lying and that the CIA supported a fascist to kill Gaitán, business as usual. It falls in line with everything else the US does in Latin America. After he died, there was ten years of violence and guerrilla action as a direct result called "La Violencia". That will make you think, how many Colombians moved to the USA during this period? So before you blame a Latino immigrant, imagine first that their leader may have been killed by upperclass whites in the USA. This is the safety in the eye of the storm factor. Inside the USA can be safe, because outside of the USA, the USA plays by a different sets of rules than in.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Violencia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathaniel_Weyl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pantomime

So you see, this guy Gaitán was smart, a doctor, charismatic. He was also an advocate of Bovlivarian pan-america ideals, returning land stolen by whites to indians. This redistrubiting the land is something USA hates. Of course the USA killed him. Same happened in Guatemala. Redistributing land to peasants, an American fruit company is up in arms, and a right wing government is funded. Thats why I really like Chavez in Venezuela. He is a classic south American socialist, following Bolivarianism. Its so great that he is alive now for the Latin American people. Some Americans have called for the assassination of Chavez already.

[bsdetector]

The only question is not why Turks do not integrate, but also, do the Germans accept the ones who integrate or try to?

My older brother is one of the guest workers who arrived in Germany in early 70s. His son was born and raised there. He studied law and practices law in his own office in Bonn. So, he does not run a grocery store or a doner kebap restaurant, if you must know. He is probably a model for integration, and yet, Germans he meets still keep asking him when he is going back home.

I would like to see an article by Spiegel on the experiences of Turks who integrated according to, say, Merkel's definition of integration, and the way they see how they are viewed by Germans.

[greanhouse]

Originally Posted by bsdetector

The only question is not why Turks do not integrate, but also, do the Germans accept the ones who integrate or try to?

My older brother is one of the guest workers who arrived in Germany in early 70s. His son was born and raised there. He studied law and practices law in his own office in Bonn. So, he does not run a grocery store or a doner kebap restaurant, if you must know. He is probably a model for integration, and yet, Germans he meets still keep asking him when he is going back home.

I would like to see an article by Spiegel on the experiences of Turks who integrated according to, say, Merkel's definition of integration, and the way they see how they are viewed by Germans.

Its an issue of stereotype though. I am sure once your brother's son is better known by his fellow citizens, those questions won't be asked twice by the same person.

If 8 out of 10 Turks that you meet haven't integrated, as a human being, naturally, you are going to doubt the other 2 as well.

Get 8 out of 10 turks to integrate and the doubts will be removed and your brother's son will be more readily accepted.

He's trying, and should be recognized for doing so, but the one thing about stereotypes that give them merit, they are correct 80%+ of the time.

I can live with being right 8 out of 10 times myself.

[esperonto]

Originally Posted by greanhouse

Its an issue of stereotype though. I am sure once your brother's son is better known by his fellow citizens, those questions won't be asked twice by the same person.

If 8 out of 10 Turks that you meet haven't integrated, as a human being, naturally, you are going to doubt the other 2 as well.

Get 8 out of 10 turks to integrate and the doubts will be removed and your brother's son will be more readily accepted.

He's trying, and should be recognized for doing so, but the one thing about stereotypes that give them merit, they are correct 80%+ of the time.

I can live with being right 8 out of 10 times myself.

I lived in Turkey for 9 months and I integrated with Turks instead of the other way around. Before you ask others to integrate, try it yourself. Sometimes I think of going back to Turkey, If I could find something to do there to survive.

[belal123]

US EU Colonies Wealth Power Industrial Revolution are recent (couple of hundred yr or more).Turks had Roman Eastern empire.Turks had Chariot race of Romans right in Istanbul(Constantinople).Rome or Rum is Turkish Language word.Turks with Arabs Tatars and Others had spread all over the world.Many countries have Turkic background even India's Urdu or modern Hindi.North Africa Middle east Europe even Central Asia and China Sinkiang have Turkic flavour.Not too long ago Turkish culture had coffee Baklava shops and Turkish Public Baths.Those who have built their culture on Turks with modernisation make fun of Turkish Ottoman Empire with conflict started WW11 WWII Israel Iraq Iran Aghanistan war.All 1.5 billion Muslims live in their own countries.The immigrants are SomalisPalestinian and those Turks from Europes (often called settlers from former Turkic Background).Even Pakistanis Afghans Iraqis and Bangladeshis are those who took their chances due to invasion by the West and India.To stop harrasment to these immigrants first and foremost US Allied must quit the region reduce own WMDs.As long as push for their resources from their region is on with huge deficits of own with insults (other way around) it will remain Status Quo.Why you keep pushing these people from their homeland.What would you have done in immigrants shoes?

[LEOPARD]

It is an intresting discussion going on and let us hope it ends well. I would like to add an other taste to it. For effective integration in to a new society many factors do matter and I consider religion also plays an important role. Those coming from Muslim Countries do keep in their minds the importance of religion. Problem with the Germany is that here masses do not want to know the fatual position and teachings of Islam and just rely on media reports and writings of those creating sensation about Islam.
Recent survey published in media has revealed that only 26% of Germans would favour Muslim in their neighbourhood while rest consider the Muslims as fanatics, terrorists and uncompromising etc. This figure has been quoted as the biggest figure in almost whole of Europe. Holland where one hears lot of Anti Islamic things, but surprisingly 62% masses favour living in neighbourhood of Muslims.

Now when such reports with frequent intervals appear in the Media it affects the minds and hearts of Muslims living in Germany and they start rethinking whether to integrate in the society or to examine the possibility of gong back to their motherlands. Not the Turkish but one segment of Sub Continent mainly from Pakistan are also settled in Germany. This group calls itself Ahmadiyya Muslim. Though small in number but thought to be effectively organised and have built maximum numbers of mosques in Germany during last few years. Now youngsters belonging to this group are considered to very effectively integrated in to German Society. However publication of recent Media Reports depicting hatred of Germans for religion Islam has raised suspisions even in the minds of many Ahmadiyya youth also. Though most of these are integrated but have strated to re examine the popssibioity of leaving the Germany for good.
I would like that those who have intellect approach to integration problems of Germany should also give a thought to this aspect also.

[meikrizzo]

Originally Posted by SPIEGEL_Eric

Turkish immigrants have been coming to Germany since the 1960s, but for many years Germans assumed the "guest workers" would return home one day. The country's refusal to face up to the reality and the lack of a proper immigration policy led to today's integration problems.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...716067,00.html

It is impossible to integrate the range of cultural
realities that are inherent in the elements of this
discussion as it were. Germany could/must completely
absorb France in seamless integration, but not Turkey
as it is mixing at the wrong level of imaginative genius
as to the prospects for success of any desirable outcome
to speak of in fact. Michael Rizzo

[poliman]

As I said before, the doner subject itself is racist. Like associating Chinese with takeout restaurants in the US.

Why does a Turk simply not settle with a doner stand in America but in Germany? Because, in America, Turk has other options; like working for municipal or federal government, or be an officer in armed forces, teaching at college..

Society's expectations from an immigrant in America, whether he be a Turk or else, is diversified and higher. He is not expected to be working in bathrooms or cleaning offices. He is expected to discover his potential and output that potential to serve the country...But in Germany, unfortunately, he is expected to do things that an ethic German would not do..

There is a ceiling for the Turk in Germany, it is not even glass ceiling to be broken, it is the thickest concrete ceiling you can find.

Perhaps in coming decades, things will change in Germany, but from my personal observation in Germany as a Turkish-American, it will not happen anytime soon, given the social attitude against Turks in Germany.

Germany shooting itself on the foot by looking down at its Turks, by demonizing 3 million with few honor killings, excluding them for. Social decision making, government structure etc..